The Chat About The Show
A conversation with filmmaker Caveh Zahedi about the long-awaited third season of The Show About the Show
The Show About the Show began with a simple, but alluring, premise. Each episode of filmmaker Caveh Zahedi’s low budget television show would be about the making of the previous episode. In the hands of a different filmmaker, The Show could have easily been a charming, but ultimately unremarkable, bit of programming for the small community-focused television channel that commissioned it. Instead, Zahedi took the premise to its logical conclusion with his unrelentingly honest filmmaking style, opening fissures in his personal relationships and putting strain on his marriage in the pursuit of creating something meaningful.
In Season 2, Zahedi dropped the initial premise of The Show to focus on the dissolution of his marriage after the events of the first season. He gets involved with a younger woman, Ashley, who admires his work, while his wife, Mandy, starts a sexual relationship with a mutual friend. At a certain point, both Mandy and Ashley, who had been playing themselves, quit The Show, to be replaced by other actors.
In the years since the second season, which aired way back in 2019, The Show was dropped by BRIC and Mandy mounted various legal challenges to prevent its further release in the midst of an ugly divorce. Regardless, Zahedi forged ahead with a somewhat confusingly labelled “Season 4,” which documented his efforts to crowdfund money to complete Season 3, about the making of the second season and the ultimate breakdown of both his marriage to Mandy and the relationship he developed with Ashley.
Finally, nearly 10 years after the series debuted, Season 3 of The Show About the Show has arrived, and Bleeding Edge is excited to premiere it in Toronto on July 16 at the Paradise Theatre. If anything, the new season is even more brutally honest than previous seasons. More time is given to candid footage of Caveh and Mandy’s marital disputes captured during the filming of Season 2, while Ashley is given an episode to provide her side of her relationship with Zahedi, allowing the audience to see a side of him that doesn’t come out during his trademark camera addresses.
We talked to Zahedi about this new season, whether he has any doubts about the unflinching, radical honesty at the heart of it, and how things currently stand between him and the women at the heart of The Show.
Bleeding Edge: So it’s been a while since the last season of the show, and a lot has changed in your life since. Where does Mandy stand on The Show at this point?
CZ: She refuses to make any kind of deal or negotiate anything. I've offered her the house, and like all the money from The Show, and she refuses to take it. And she's quite broke so I think she likes the idea of having the power to sue me at any time. But I also don't know that she has the capacity to keep actually trying to sue me financially. So it's like a hovering sword of Damocles over the whole thing at all times. She hasn't done anything I'm aware of to try to block Season 3 yet.
BE: In the episode “The Show According to Ashley,” Ashley asks something like, “Why do you care more about The Show than your wife and your kids?” That might be a bit extreme, but I do think that's a response a lot of viewers have to the series. Why are you willing to risk these relationships on behalf of completing this project?
CZ: I think there are two parts to that. One is how much I value the project, and the other is how little I value the relationship, I guess? My feeling is, with the marriage, a lot of people say, “Oh, you destroyed your marriage!” And I always say my marriage was already not doing well. It was going to end, anyway. [The Show] just sped it up. I think that honesty, but also the pressure of a camera, has a similar function. It tends to make things that would happen anyway, happen sooner. So, to me, it's not like I did something that was avoidable. I just got to where I was going faster, which I think was a good thing, really. My marriage had lots of fault lines already.
It’s not clear in The Show, because people always read it as like, “Oh, I did this.” But in that scene I say, “Okay, fine. I'll stop putting you in The Show.” And then she still starts seeing somebody else, and then we end up breaking up anyway. So in reality I didn't make that choice. I actually made the other choice. It was either too late, or that wasn't the issue.
BE: But beyond the breakup. There's the conflict about whether or not your kids are going to appear in The Show, and I guess you don't put the kids in The Show after that, but it feels like you could make this conflict go away by just giving up The Show at some point.
CZ: Yes, I could, but it's my life's work. I had been making films about my life before I met my wife and she was in every single one of them for 20 years. I've been going through all my old archives for this project I'm doing. I'm doing a channel and I'm putting all my work on as a loop. You can go to it and see whatever it is, and it's all in chronological order. But I've been finding little things to put in that I've never released, and I'm shocked by the number of things that my wife agreed to be part of for years and years and years. Her stopping was the weird thing, not her being involved. That was just what we've done since I met her.
Her narrative is like, “I don't want to do it!” But she wanted to do it until a certain point, and then when she wanted to stop, she stopped. It’s not like she was forced into anything, ever. It would be like if there was somebody and their whole thing is they paint flowers, and then someone says you can no longer paint flowers because I don't like it. I guess they could start painting something else, but it's weird to make films about my life and not to include the conflicts I'm having with my ex and things around my kids. It just seems to me like it’s beyond castration. It would completely defang my work.
BE: There is definitely some integrity to your devotion to this project, especially given that you've never received serious financial backing, and this current season was crowdfunded. How often do you reflect on the absurdity of devoting so much of your life to this show?
CZ: Never. It doesn't seem absurd to me. What else am I going to do? Make films about gangsters? That would be absurd!
BE: I’d love to see a Caveh gangster movie!
CZ: I believe that what I'm doing is important beyond its commercial viability and even beyond my lifetime, and it's not done. It's an ongoing thing that ends when I die. So to me, to abort my life's work because one person has decided that she doesn't like it… to me, would be absurd, and would be a weird kind of codependence or something.
BE: So this season includes a lot more behind the scenes, candid footage of you and Mandy than the previous seasons, and it's quite raw and emotional. It struck me that it sometimes feels like there's a discrepancy between the version of yourself that you present in your camera addresses, which is smiling and amiable, and the version behind the camera, which, in the fragments that we see, can be quite angry. And there's a lot of yelling involved. So is that something you consciously wanted to bring out more in this season?
CZ: I wasn't trying to do anything, I just had good footage of me being very upset, and it was spellbinding and transgressive and complicated. I don't think I'm that way very often. We were breaking up, and things were very dark and very ugly in that period. But I also think it's important to document every aspect of the self that doesn't get documented much by anybody, and so I was really happy to have it. I always try to make myself look as bad as possible with whatever footage I have. I was just fortunate to have had those moments captured on camera. My ex had similar moments, if not worse ones, but they just weren't captured on camera. If they were, I would have used them, too. I just used what I had.
BE: I also think about, in the episode with Ashley, she says that when she first met you she was surprised that you were actually quite reserved in person, and that's actually something that I felt when we met last year. I thought this is not quite the same person who's on camera, and I understand why you perform for the camera when you're doing the camera addresses, but is there a sense in which that is somehow dishonest to present yourself in that way?
CZ: If somebody said that I wouldn't argue with them. I think that it's no more dishonest than meeting someone at a party and being friendly. It's the face you put on to be welcoming to another person. From years and years of talking to the camera, I feel like I've figured out what tone is the right one to bring someone in. It's probably more who I really am than the reserved one that people meet when they see me for the first time on the street or whatever, because that's just me being shy and insecure and awkward. When I'm with someone that I feel close to, or I feel loved by, I don't have to put up a defense. I think I'm probably more like that guy.
I tell my students this, too, when they're talking to a camera “Talk as if you're talking to a friend who likes you. Don't talk as if you're talking to a stranger who's trying to decide if they like you or not.” You tend to be more engaging and winning if you're not worrying about how they're reading you and have a certain confidence or comfort with yourself. It's just more charming, I think.
BE: There is something about this season where those two things, the behind-the scenes-footage, and the episode with Ashley, make it feel like you've opened up the perspective on you to other people, and it shows how the first two seasons are more guided by your perspective. Particularly with the Ashley episode, what was the idea behind doing that, and how did it come about?
CZ: I've been wanting other perspectives. I really wanted Mandy to do it for a long time and she wouldn't. And I thought that it would be really great for the viewer to see all the stuff that I wasn't saying and get a whole other perspective on it, and I know that a lot of her frustration is that that wasn’t there. And it wasn't because I didn't want to put it there, it was because she refused to put it there or to participate in making that available to the viewers. So when Ashley came over one night after we had broken up and things had been strained, I asked her, “Hey, we got cameras here, and I was thinking it might be nice if you talk to the camera about your perspective.” And she said okay. And then she just did that whole thing. It was in one take. And it was very clear to me, as it was happening, that this was really good footage.
She says things that are troubling and damning and I like the idea, artistically, of not defending myself or responding to those things. But whenever I would have a test screening and people would see it, they would say, “What the hell? That's terrible!” And I would explain to them what actually happened, or just give them more details or more background about what happened, and they'd be like, “Oh, okay, well, that makes sense.” A lot of people were saying, “You got to put that in The Show.” People said “You could get canceled! You might lose your job! People are going to hate you!” And I was like, well, maybe, but I don't know how I would even defend myself, because once you start down this slope of defending yourself from these accusations, it's a bad look. It’s almost like a trap or something. I think it's better to not defend yourself and just let it hang there.
But on most Q&A’s I'll be asked about it, and I have no problem explaining what happened. And invariably their opinion changes 180 degrees once they hear what really happened, or what was behind that. I know it sounds really bad, but it's not. I have no problem with what I did. My conscience is clean, but it's true that if you just take what she says at face value, it sounds really bad. I don’t like it being wrapped up neatly like, “Oh, no, he's a good guy,” or “That's not how it was.” It's nice to have this hovering thing. It sticks in your throat or something.
I think art should be like that. It shouldn't be digestible. I like art that's indigestible. And this feels indigestible. And some people say it's misleading, which it is, but whenever anyone tells a story about somebody else, it's always misleading. Arguably a lot of what I say about Mandy is misleading, she would say. And she would say there's all these extenuating circumstances which make her actions seem less reprehensible. And there are.
I think that in any conflict or disagreement there is a way to look at it where the person seems really wrong or morally problematic, and there's a way where they don't. And you can see that right now with, I mean… it's hard to justify what's happening in Gaza, but the Israelis justify it, and in their version, the Palestinians are horrible and the Israelis are virtuous. And the fact that they could do that and get away with it to the extent that it's happening is, I think, a really important thing about story, and about how there's always another side. And it's very easy to leave things out that make the other person look reprehensible, whereas, in fact, we're all completely human, and almost everything anyone does is kind of understandable for the most part.
To me it seemed important and strong. It seemed strong, and The Show is so much about moralism and an attack on moralism that it seemed nice to have this thing. I tried to address it by putting in that Q&A from the London screening, which didn't really address it very much, but at least it acknowledged the shockingness of the thing that had just happened. Before, it wasn't addressed, and it just felt really tone deaf. I never felt like I totally figured out how to address that thing. I'm happy to tell you, or to tell anyone what happened if you want me to, but in terms of the thinking around not doing it in The Show, that's why I didn't.
BE: I think we can leave that story for the Q&A. Early on in the season you discuss the Ibsen play The Wild Duck, where I suppose there's some truth and honesty and it leads to a tragic end in some way, and it does seem like you're having a moment of reckoning with this idea of radical honesty, and I'm just wondering if you've had any further revelations or made any further conclusions on that topic.
CZ: Nietzsche says whatever doesn't kill me makes me stronger, and it's kind of my basic operating principle. In life, a lot of people feel like being comfortable or not in pain or not being hurt is some kind of moral terminus where that's the end goal. And if you make someone uncomfortable, somehow you've acted immorally towards them. I've always found that absurd. I don't think the goal of life is to be comfortable or not to suffer. Life is suffering, and almost nothing but suffering, and the idea that you could somehow avoid that, or that it's even good to avoid that, seems puerile and really entitled.
I think we're here to grow, spiritually, and I think we're here to grow spiritually through suffering. I don't think we should inflict suffering unnecessarily or arbitrarily to help people grow. There's a story about Truffaut, I don't know if it's true or not, seems impossible to believe, but supposedly he had two daughters and when one of them was bad, he would punish the other one, and he would tell them, “I'm doing this to show you that the world's not fair.” And it's such an interesting thing to do. It goes against every instinct that I have, but he's got a point that the world is not fair. It's just an interesting thing to do.
But the problem is, when somebody kills themselves, like suicide… Nietzsche says whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. If it kills you, it doesn't make you stronger. There's this metaphysical question of, well, is suicide necessarily a bad thing? And people debate this. Most people say “Yeah,” but some people say, “Well, it's up to each person, and you can't really blame other people for another people's suicide, can you?” And that's a whole other thing, right? Like, I've been bullied on the Internet and people say, “You should kill yourself.” And then there's this whole legal thing like, is it the fault of the person who said that? Obviously, morally, it's not very evolved to tell someone that they should kill themselves, and you know somebody who saw Season 3 posted a thing about it afterwards saying that I should kill myself. And it was interesting to be mad at me for doing something that perhaps contributed to somebody feeling more suicidal, and then to be indignant about that, and then to say, “I promote suicide for you.” That kind of hypocrisy is exactly the kind of thing that I think The Show is so much against.
But I had a girlfriend more recently who was suicidal. She had a hard time with life, and my work was making it harder, and for someone who's already suicidal before they met me, to then become involved with me, it's hard, and maybe not a good idea. Like, there should be a surgeon general warning on me.
BE: On your dating profile.
CZ: Yeah, if you have had thoughts of suicide, Maybe swipe left. But I did stop doing a project that I was doing that I put a lot of effort and time into, that I believed in, because she felt like it was making her more suicidal. I didn’t want to have that in my conscience, and I didn’t want her to kill herself, and it didn't seem worth it. If she was really going to kill herself because of my work, then OK, fine, I will abort it. People have said, “Where's your moral line?” I think it's right there. I think it's death. I don't want anyone to die because of my work. So if I could save a life by not doing the work, I guess that's worth it. But again, was that even going to save her life? And would she have killed herself anyway, even if I stopped doing it? You never know. But I do think that is a line at which I myself don't have any certainty about and therefore would rather play it safe and not go there if I can. You know, if my ex was suicidal, I probably would take her out of The Show.
BE: Well, it does come up with Ashley. There's the issue of whether or not she is suicidal in The Show, and I am curious where things now stand between you two.
CZ: They're pretty good, actually. Ashley was always somebody who refused to try to censor The Show. I've had 3 girlfriends who all tried to censor The Show at some point. They wanted to be in it, and then they didn't want to be anymore, and they wanted me to take them out of it and try to block it in some way. But Ashley never did. She always believed in the work, or believed in art, or believed in the importance of free speech or expression. So I always appreciated that about her, and even though it made her uncomfortable, she was never pushing or threatening about it, and was ultimately supportive.
I think that episode makes her really uncomfortable. I think she doesn't like that people hate me who watch it. She wouldn't say some of that stuff now. If you asked her what happened she wouldn't phrase it that way anymore. So it's a snapshot of a moment in time of her psyche, and it was a moment when she was in a lot of pain and distress, and seeing things in a very black and white way. So she's always said, “Don't include it. Get rid of that episode. You don't need that. I don't need that.” And I've always said, “No, it's the best episode. I'm not going to not put it in because it makes me look worse than I am. It's just too good!”
I haven't talked to her in a little while. People were telling me I needed to address this thing more, and some people were like, “Well, if you address it, no one's going to believe you,” or “It's not going to be effective. You really need her to address it.” So at one point I said, “Would you be open to addressing this yourself?” And she didn't really want to, and she said, “Just get rid of the whole episode, and I was like, I don’t want to.” But then I did the Q&A thing and I felt like that was probably enough. We did do a conversation for my podcast Conversations I Want to Have Before We Both Die. And in that we talk about this at length, and that was done a few years after the episode of The Show. So I think anyone who hears that can see that, one, we're on good terms and, two, there's a lot more nuance around what happened that gets discussed. I thought at one point of using some of that in The Show, and I tried, but it's a one-hour long conversation, so it didn’t feel organic. It felt like I was trying to obviate attacks, so it felt stronger not to.
BE: In that episode, there is this sense of whiplash when you realize that from Ashley's perspective, getting involved in this relationship involved a lot of doubt and concern about the impact it might have on your marriage. Obviously, she was going through a very hard time and had a lot of doubts, and wasn't necessarily looking for a romantic relationship with you. I'm curious how much of that you knew at the time, or how much of it came as a surprise to you.
CZ: My belief, which is just mine, is that she's not being totally honest there with herself. I mean, she definitely had doubts, but she also had the other thing. But when she told us that, she just completely focused on the doubts. I could tell you several examples of things that she did, that contradicted what she says happened there, and I think if I told you those things you'd be like, “Oh, okay, well, that's different.” And it is. But people tend to, especially if they feel guilty about something, they tend to want to justify their actions by focusing on the things that make their actions seem more excusable and ignoring the things that make their actions seem less excusable. It's a very human thing. I do it, too, and it's also because I do it, too, that I felt like it was important to let her say it her way. It felt like it would be unfair for me to retort or to respond to these things that she says about me where other people can't really retort to the things I say about them throughout The Show, and everybody had things they would have wanted to say that would have made them look a little better or something, and I'm sure that they tell their friends when their friends bring it up. But I didn't give people that opportunity or courtesy, so I didn't feel like it would be right for me to have it either. I think she leaves out quite a bit there. So it's true what she's saying, but it's also not the whole truth.
BE: But were you aware of the doubts at all before the episode was filmed?
CZ: One of the things is, I'll just say now, when I met her, she was seeing Robert, but she didn't tell me that. She withheld it. All she had to do was tell me I have a boyfriend, and none of this would have happened! And not only that, but when I went to hers the first time, Robert was there right before I got there, and he got the flowers that she gave me. She sent him out to get flowers to give to me. He wanted to stay and meet me because he was a fan, and she was like, “No, no, no, I don't want you here! It's going to make him uncomfortable if he sees that I have a boyfriend!” And that's ridiculous that it would make me uncomfortable. I'd never met her! For me to walk in there, and she's got a boyfriend. It would have been like, “Okay, this is somebody. And this is the boyfriend.” So it's because she doesn't seem to have a boyfriend, and she gives me flowers, and she says I love you, that I start thinking she's available.
Whatever doubt she was having, she wasn't really expressing to me. On the contrary, she was hiding the fact that she was unavailable, and it was a long time before she finally told me that she had a boyfriend, and when she did, she talked about how they were breaking up, and how it wasn't working out. So for me, a lot of the doubts she had, I thought, were about that. They were about feeling guilty towards her boyfriend that she wanted to break up with but was having trouble breaking up with.
So that's how I read it. It was like she needed help breaking up with the guy whether she ended up with me or not. She seemed like she was in a bad relationship for herself, this is the way she told the story, and that she was only in it because she felt bad for him. And I was like, that's not a good reason to stay with somebody. So no, I didn't really know. And now that I do know, I don't think that's the whole truth, but it's definitely part of the truth and part of what I didn't know.
BE: Going back to the ending, there isn't a lot of resolution to the story, which I think is by design, at least in this project. But you also say that you're done with The Show. You're “breaking up” with The Show, but given that your life project is this self documentation, I am wondering where you're going to go in future film projects. How do you think the story of Caveh will reemerge in another project at some point?
CZ: Well, I am continuing the story of Caveh. The main thing I'm working on right now is this Ulysses project, which is about a day in the life of me and seven actors on June 16, 2022. But that's a 24 hour project that encompasses my whole life and it's very complicated and very, very vast. But that is the really the sequel to The Show at this point. It takes place several years after Season 2 ended and after the events of Season 3.
And then I've been doing other projects since then that have continued the story of my life. I shot a couple other films that I'm still working on. One of the reasons I ended The Show is because it was The Show, particularly, that my ex was trying to block. She’s not trying to block my Ulysses film, and she might, but she's not very involved in it. It was a period when we weren't together and she's not a part of it.
The ongoing project has not changed, but just the part that's The Show, which was the most problematic part legally. I stopped that part because she was suing me and it was very hard to get anyone to see it, and it was hard to sell it, and people were quitting. It felt like it was no longer what it had been. I just needed to end it and start something new. And I did.